SGX and Unbreakable DRM — Handmade Chat — Episode Guide

0:18@AndrewJDR Can you explain how this Intel SGX thing allows for "unbreakable DRM" for applications (kind of an uncommon thing on the PC side up until now)?

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0:18@AndrewJDR Can you explain how this Intel SGX thing allows for "unbreakable DRM" for applications (kind of an uncommon thing on the PC side up until now)?

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0:18@AndrewJDR Can you explain how this Intel SGX thing allows for "unbreakable DRM" for applications (kind of an uncommon thing on the PC side up until now)?

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1:55Blackboard: The current state of DRM

7:51Blackboard: Baking the key, e.g. RSA private key, into the CPU

15:13@andsz_ You could just give them another public key that you have the private key for [see Resources]

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15:13@andsz_ You could just give them another public key that you have the private key for [see Resources]

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15:13@andsz_ You could just give them another public key that you have the private key for [see Resources]

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18:42Attestation [see Resources]

21:03@bastheimreth What about the above scenario, but where there is no internet connection? How would one run such software in off-line mode?

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21:03@bastheimreth What about the above scenario, but where there is no internet connection? How would one run such software in off-line mode?

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21:03@bastheimreth What about the above scenario, but where there is no internet connection? How would one run such software in off-line mode?

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21:54@Pseudonym73 So the NSA doesn't have to crack it. They just have to rubber-hose Intel

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21:54@Pseudonym73 So the NSA doesn't have to crack it. They just have to rubber-hose Intel

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21:54@Pseudonym73 So the NSA doesn't have to crack it. They just have to rubber-hose Intel

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22:36@Stevoid1990 Can't this be broken using emulation?

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22:36@Stevoid1990 Can't this be broken using emulation?

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22:36@Stevoid1990 Can't this be broken using emulation?

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22:48Blackboard: SGX, step-by-step

26:14@macielda Can't they just figure out Intel Key Generator and make a Key Generator for it?

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26:14@macielda Can't they just figure out Intel Key Generator and make a Key Generator for it?

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26:14@macielda Can't they just figure out Intel Key Generator and make a Key Generator for it?

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27:18@Stevoid1990 So even if the emulation contained a valid key from a registered copy it couldn't be cracked?

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27:18@Stevoid1990 So even if the emulation contained a valid key from a registered copy it couldn't be cracked?

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27:18@Stevoid1990 So even if the emulation contained a valid key from a registered copy it couldn't be cracked?

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28:33@AndrewJDR I assume this breaks certain features of the windows API since the memory is protected? Global hook DLLs for example?

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28:33@AndrewJDR I assume this breaks certain features of the windows API since the memory is protected? Global hook DLLs for example?

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28:33@AndrewJDR I assume this breaks certain features of the windows API since the memory is protected? Global hook DLLs for example?

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29:38@ejunkie64 What if the CPU fails or you want to upgrade?

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29:38@ejunkie64 What if the CPU fails or you want to upgrade?

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29:38@ejunkie64 What if the CPU fails or you want to upgrade?

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30:02@Longboolean Would Intel create a different key for each manufactured CPU or is there only ever one key?

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30:02@Longboolean Would Intel create a different key for each manufactured CPU or is there only ever one key?

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30:02@Longboolean Would Intel create a different key for each manufactured CPU or is there only ever one key?

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30:42@CrackedOrb But this means you lose control of your own system since only Intel can perform actions

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30:42@CrackedOrb But this means you lose control of your own system since only Intel can perform actions

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30:42@CrackedOrb But this means you lose control of your own system since only Intel can perform actions

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31:18@ezioauditorerevs How susceptible is the locking of portions of memory / CPU cores to malicious encryption programs that simply want to screw your computer over?

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31:18@ezioauditorerevs How susceptible is the locking of portions of memory / CPU cores to malicious encryption programs that simply want to screw your computer over?

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31:18@ezioauditorerevs How susceptible is the locking of portions of memory / CPU cores to malicious encryption programs that simply want to screw your computer over?

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32:13@ratchetfreak But if the game is sloppy and ends up allowing arbitrary user code execution, then the code can be leaked

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32:13@ratchetfreak But if the game is sloppy and ends up allowing arbitrary user code execution, then the code can be leaked

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32:13@ratchetfreak But if the game is sloppy and ends up allowing arbitrary user code execution, then the code can be leaked

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32:43@pragmascrypt If anyone ever leaks Intel's private key, SGX on all those CPUs would be exploitable?

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32:43@pragmascrypt If anyone ever leaks Intel's private key, SGX on all those CPUs would be exploitable?

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32:43@pragmascrypt If anyone ever leaks Intel's private key, SGX on all those CPUs would be exploitable?

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33:44@Popcorn0x90 Why don't they use this system for banks, something that's worth protecting?

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33:44@Popcorn0x90 Why don't they use this system for banks, something that's worth protecting?

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33:44@Popcorn0x90 Why don't they use this system for banks, something that's worth protecting?

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34:12@quartertron Can you think of awesome usages for this? Like an opt-in anti-cheat thing, so the server would know everyone on it had no aim bots or whatever

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34:12@quartertron Can you think of awesome usages for this? Like an opt-in anti-cheat thing, so the server would know everyone on it had no aim bots or whatever

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34:12@quartertron Can you think of awesome usages for this? Like an opt-in anti-cheat thing, so the server would know everyone on it had no aim bots or whatever

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36:39@Rfh666 Will this constant decryption used while running a game have an effect on performance?

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36:39@Rfh666 Will this constant decryption used while running a game have an effect on performance?

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36:39@Rfh666 Will this constant decryption used while running a game have an effect on performance?

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37:02@Robrobby Once a key pair is known, everybody could use it and encrypt the game with it through Valve, leaving Valve at encrypt everything with the same key (CPU) for different users. Well fail on the way very fast

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37:02@Robrobby Once a key pair is known, everybody could use it and encrypt the game with it through Valve, leaving Valve at encrypt everything with the same key (CPU) for different users. Well fail on the way very fast

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37:02@Robrobby Once a key pair is known, everybody could use it and encrypt the game with it through Valve, leaving Valve at encrypt everything with the same key (CPU) for different users. Well fail on the way very fast

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39:13@cubercaleb Redownloading games sounds bad for SSDs

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39:13@cubercaleb Redownloading games sounds bad for SSDs

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39:13@cubercaleb Redownloading games sounds bad for SSDs

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39:37@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU?

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39:37@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU?

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39:37@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU?

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39:49@Pseudonym73 Does SGX sound like a great place for a rootkit to hide or what?

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39:49@Pseudonym73 Does SGX sound like a great place for a rootkit to hide or what?

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39:49@Pseudonym73 Does SGX sound like a great place for a rootkit to hide or what?

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40:15@ratchetfreak Doesn't that also prevent JIT'ing?

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40:15@ratchetfreak Doesn't that also prevent JIT'ing?

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40:15@ratchetfreak Doesn't that also prevent JIT'ing?

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41:20@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU and maintain a queryable database for each client 24/7 considering its Key was generated using a quantum measurement of some kind and stuff?

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41:20@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU and maintain a queryable database for each client 24/7 considering its Key was generated using a quantum measurement of some kind and stuff?

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41:20@macielda Isn't it expensive for Intel to print a different circuit for each CPU and maintain a queryable database for each client 24/7 considering its Key was generated using a quantum measurement of some kind and stuff?

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43:08@AndrewJDR Have you heard any word on whether AMD will be implementing this?

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43:08@AndrewJDR Have you heard any word on whether AMD will be implementing this?

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43:08@AndrewJDR Have you heard any word on whether AMD will be implementing this?

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43:16@cubercaleb Isn't DRM good if you want to prevent people from freely redistributing your software?

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43:16@cubercaleb Isn't DRM good if you want to prevent people from freely redistributing your software?

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43:16@cubercaleb Isn't DRM good if you want to prevent people from freely redistributing your software?

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45:37@Robrobby How you draw the future of restricted hardware I should start not buying hardware like this, right?

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45:37@Robrobby How you draw the future of restricted hardware I should start not buying hardware like this, right?

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45:37@Robrobby How you draw the future of restricted hardware I should start not buying hardware like this, right?

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46:19@Stevoid1990 I imagine this would be great to use for hardware banning from games?

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46:19@Stevoid1990 I imagine this would be great to use for hardware banning from games?

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46:19@Stevoid1990 I imagine this would be great to use for hardware banning from games?

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47:12@Rawdge Let's say a revoke certificate is issued for a compromised CPU, and Valve et al no longer issue new software, why would your system be 'bricked?' Since you already have an encrypted version of the software on your HD, how could they still prevent you from running that software that's already installed?

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47:12@Rawdge Let's say a revoke certificate is issued for a compromised CPU, and Valve et al no longer issue new software, why would your system be 'bricked?' Since you already have an encrypted version of the software on your HD, how could they still prevent you from running that software that's already installed?

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47:12@Rawdge Let's say a revoke certificate is issued for a compromised CPU, and Valve et al no longer issue new software, why would your system be 'bricked?' Since you already have an encrypted version of the software on your HD, how could they still prevent you from running that software that's already installed?

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48:04@Gobfather Since the key is on the CPU, couldn't you just buy a new CPU if the key gets blacklisted instead of a whole new computer?

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48:04@Gobfather Since the key is on the CPU, couldn't you just buy a new CPU if the key gets blacklisted instead of a whole new computer?

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48:04@Gobfather Since the key is on the CPU, couldn't you just buy a new CPU if the key gets blacklisted instead of a whole new computer?

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48:32@mmv94 Won't that generate a huge market for computers that have been blacklisted?

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48:32@mmv94 Won't that generate a huge market for computers that have been blacklisted?

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48:32@mmv94 Won't that generate a huge market for computers that have been blacklisted?

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49:01@macielda It feels like it is just a matter of time until someone somewhere breaks this scheme and it is just a massive waste of time and resources for everyone. Am I right?

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49:01@macielda It feels like it is just a matter of time until someone somewhere breaks this scheme and it is just a massive waste of time and resources for everyone. Am I right?

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49:01@macielda It feels like it is just a matter of time until someone somewhere breaks this scheme and it is just a massive waste of time and resources for everyone. Am I right?

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49:42@ezioauditorerevs Isn't it DRM that is the primary driving force for piracy in the first place?

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49:42@ezioauditorerevs Isn't it DRM that is the primary driving force for piracy in the first place?

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49:42@ezioauditorerevs Isn't it DRM that is the primary driving force for piracy in the first place?

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50:09@cubercaleb I think it is a bigger deal for companies like Adobe and Autodesk, both of which have software with insanely high piracy rates

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50:09@cubercaleb I think it is a bigger deal for companies like Adobe and Autodesk, both of which have software with insanely high piracy rates

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50:09@cubercaleb I think it is a bigger deal for companies like Adobe and Autodesk, both of which have software with insanely high piracy rates

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50:20@mmv94 When big companies start locking out people from using their software, they (the people) will start looking for software from smaller companies that won't use this technology

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50:20@mmv94 When big companies start locking out people from using their software, they (the people) will start looking for software from smaller companies that won't use this technology

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50:20@mmv94 When big companies start locking out people from using their software, they (the people) will start looking for software from smaller companies that won't use this technology

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51:39@Hayai Do you think that there's a chance that the smallish trend of DRM-free games will counteract this SGX stuff in any significant way?

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51:39@Hayai Do you think that there's a chance that the smallish trend of DRM-free games will counteract this SGX stuff in any significant way?

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51:39@Hayai Do you think that there's a chance that the smallish trend of DRM-free games will counteract this SGX stuff in any significant way?

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53:09@Robrobby Sad the entry costs in fab productions are so high, else I would find a Kickstarter soon to some fantastic "user-owned CPU architecture"

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53:09@Robrobby Sad the entry costs in fab productions are so high, else I would find a Kickstarter soon to some fantastic "user-owned CPU architecture"

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53:09@Robrobby Sad the entry costs in fab productions are so high, else I would find a Kickstarter soon to some fantastic "user-owned CPU architecture"

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53:39@ezioauditorerevs Could this be taken a step further if they start putting the key on the motherboard instead of the CPU? That's less replaceable, isn't it?

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53:39@ezioauditorerevs Could this be taken a step further if they start putting the key on the motherboard instead of the CPU? That's less replaceable, isn't it?

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53:39@ezioauditorerevs Could this be taken a step further if they start putting the key on the motherboard instead of the CPU? That's less replaceable, isn't it?

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54:15@AndrewJDR So apparently QEMU (a VM hypervisor) has support for emulating SGX. How is this useful?

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54:15@AndrewJDR So apparently QEMU (a VM hypervisor) has support for emulating SGX. How is this useful?

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54:15@AndrewJDR So apparently QEMU (a VM hypervisor) has support for emulating SGX. How is this useful?

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55:32@SoysauceTheKid For businesses wouldn't this tech be good for the consumer? I would feel more comfortable if my bank had my data encrypted as tight as possible

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55:32@SoysauceTheKid For businesses wouldn't this tech be good for the consumer? I would feel more comfortable if my bank had my data encrypted as tight as possible

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55:32@SoysauceTheKid For businesses wouldn't this tech be good for the consumer? I would feel more comfortable if my bank had my data encrypted as tight as possible

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56:55@cubercaleb Has RAD ever had problems with people pirating their software or people releasing the source code?

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56:55@cubercaleb Has RAD ever had problems with people pirating their software or people releasing the source code?

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56:55@cubercaleb Has RAD ever had problems with people pirating their software or people releasing the source code?

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57:09@macielda Could encrypting each (16GB?) game download using your SGX key be a prohibitive cost for a company like Valve? How likely would it be for Valve to refuse doing such a thing?

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57:09@macielda Could encrypting each (16GB?) game download using your SGX key be a prohibitive cost for a company like Valve? How likely would it be for Valve to refuse doing such a thing?

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57:09@macielda Could encrypting each (16GB?) game download using your SGX key be a prohibitive cost for a company like Valve? How likely would it be for Valve to refuse doing such a thing?

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58:39@Robrobby I am less afraid of prize control with DRM strong as this one. I am more afraid that the OS of the future will block software that hasn't been signed. That is scary!

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58:39@Robrobby I am less afraid of prize control with DRM strong as this one. I am more afraid that the OS of the future will block software that hasn't been signed. That is scary!

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58:39@Robrobby I am less afraid of prize control with DRM strong as this one. I am more afraid that the OS of the future will block software that hasn't been signed. That is scary!

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59:14@Avalier Would the entire time [game] need to be encrypted or just the executable part

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59:14@Avalier Would the entire time [game] need to be encrypted or just the executable part

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59:14@Avalier Would the entire time [game] need to be encrypted or just the executable part

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1:00:00@Gobfather Since Valve made a big push for Linux, I'm willing to bet that they wont jump on the SGX train since it is a possible limiter to consumers

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1:00:00@Gobfather Since Valve made a big push for Linux, I'm willing to bet that they wont jump on the SGX train since it is a possible limiter to consumers

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1:00:00@Gobfather Since Valve made a big push for Linux, I'm willing to bet that they wont jump on the SGX train since it is a possible limiter to consumers

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1:00:17@cubercaleb What is code signing anyway?

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1:00:17@cubercaleb What is code signing anyway?

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1:00:17@cubercaleb What is code signing anyway?

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1:00:43Blackboard: Public Key Encryption

1:03:53@macielda Casey, would you consider prioritizing developing for OSes which refuse to use SGX?

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1:03:53@macielda Casey, would you consider prioritizing developing for OSes which refuse to use SGX?

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1:03:53@macielda Casey, would you consider prioritizing developing for OSes which refuse to use SGX?

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1:04:09@Stevoid1990 You should do more streams about this kind of stuff, it's really interesting

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1:04:09@Stevoid1990 You should do more streams about this kind of stuff, it's really interesting

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1:04:09@Stevoid1990 You should do more streams about this kind of stuff, it's really interesting

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1:04:18@Robrobby DRM like this is sad. Can you please choose a happier topic for the next chat?

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1:04:18@Robrobby DRM like this is sad. Can you please choose a happier topic for the next chat?

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1:04:18@Robrobby DRM like this is sad. Can you please choose a happier topic for the next chat?

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1:04:29Wrap things up

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